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Post by BrotherMarkP on Sept 29, 2009 6:43:55 GMT -5
There is much confusion on the topic of immortality and its opposite...death Here is a conversation that took place yesterday on my facebook t get you started thinking on this topic : Go ahead, tell how you feel on this! Gary Clemens We are in hell. It's called life ont his planet. Sat at 10:48pm Daniel Hall Daniel Hall Hey gary, the life on this planet is a cake walk to what the lake of fire is going to be to all those that reject the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ. Sat at 11:04pm Gary Clemens Gary Clemens I will burn to a crisp Daniel. Sat at 11:06pm Sandra Colvin Sandra Colvin No need to. Sat at 11:12pm Jason Karroll Jason Karroll Gary you will not burn to a crisp, because God Himself will sustain you so you will never die, only to suffer the agony of Hell for all eternity Sat at 11:12pm Gary Clemens Gary Clemens No.... I'm going to burn. Sat at 11:14pm Sandra Colvin Sandra Colvin You don't have to. Sat at 11:17pm Gary Clemens Gary Clemens Sandra, with great respect to you, Christ is not my savior. This is my choice. I was a Christian many years ago. But I am not now and will never be again. Sat at 11:20pm Sandra Colvin Sandra Colvin It doesn't change the fact of what I said though...you don't have to. Problem is though...you cannot be a Christian and then not be one. Either you were, or you weren't. Could be you did the Christian thang ~ but did you ever trust Jesus completely to take your place? Did you believe and trust that He paid the penalty for all your sin (past, ... Read Morepresent and future)? From what you are stating, it doesn't sound like you ever really knew what the gospel was, nor did you believe and trust that Jesus did it ALL. Sat at 11:26pm Gary Clemens Gary Clemens It is probably because it was not my choice at first. I was brought up with it. This subject would be difficult for me to discuss with you. You are a genuine and true person. In these times, that is difficult to find. I enjoy having you as a friend and I do read much of what you say because i believe it tobe unbiased. I would rather not address this subject because I do not wish to insult you with my views. i do not wish to lose you as a friend. Sat at 11:40pm Sandra Colvin Sandra Colvin I understand. But, being raised in a Christian family has nothing to do with salvation ~ and honestly, the devil is behind most organized religious institutions (that's most likely exactly why you are so turned off). If you ever want to talk about it...I'm here. I'd love at least for you to know the gospel, so that you can literally outright deny ... Read Moreit or embrace it. It has nothing to do with going to church or doing religious activities! Anyway, I'm here as your friend either way ~ I won't delete you or attack you if you don't see who Jesus is yet. I'd just like you to understand Him this side of eternity. : ) Thanks for the kind words about me and wanting to stay friends on FB...I can be a bit gnarly, I know! Sat at 11:53pm Daniel Hall Daniel Hall Same here Gary. Sun at 12:02am Gary Clemens Gary Clemens Sandra, evil is in the minds and hearts of humans. I do not believe in Satan. The things I know and have seen in this life, have led me to a path that many do not know exists. I can not turn back now, when I know that the truth is within my siight. Thank you for not pressing this issue for I respect your person greatly and will continue to enjoy what you have to offer. Peace and comfort to you. Sun at 12:02am Sandra Colvin Sandra Colvin I'm here if you will talk with me some time though ~ don't forget that. Sun at 12:07am Daniel Hall Daniel Hall The bible said in romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners , Christ died for us.It is a gift to you Eph 2:89. He loves us even when we are sinners he died for sinners , he died for the ungodly that is all of us. Sun at 12:12am Paul Broccolo Paul Broccolo Gary, Why do you believe you will burn? You are borrowing Christian ideas, then denying them at that same time. Why not just decay in the ground and up as plant food? The entire record of Christ we have in the Bible is proven to be true, and He taught more about hell then anything else. It is a safe bet what he said is true. There would be one ... Read Morething if not true, then I would not be a Christian - His resurrection from the Dead. If this was found to be false then I would be much like you, However, this is the most attested fact of ancient history. We have more evidence to show this true then any other fact of history. Sun at 7:19am Gary Clemens Gary Clemens Paul, from whom did you learn this? I have a much different version of human lineage, one that I can assure most have not heard of. Sun at 10:01am Mark Phillips Mark Phillips Fear not him who is able to kill just the body, but fear Him who is able to DESTROY both body and SOUL in hell fire.If one is not saved, one does not have an immortal soul. That is a gift only to those "quickened" and alive in Christ. The rest receive the second death forever. Let the dead buru the dead. Yesterday at 1:47pm · Delete Mark Phillips Mark Phillips bury I mean Yesterday at 1:48pm · Delete Paul Broccolo Paul Broccolo Gary, you can be assured that more than just the biblical record testifies of the Resurrection of Christ. Still, Is "burning" part of the "version" you have heard and believe?l Yesterday at 1:55pm Paul Broccolo Paul Broccolo Mark, is this your version of Gary's faith in the afterlife of the wicked? Are they simply burnt up and gone forever? Is immortality reserved for the redeemed? Is Satan's end simply non-existence? Yesterday at 1:59pm Sandra Colvin Sandra Colvin If what you say is true Mark, then Gary should be fine. Why would he even bother? This life (which he believes is Hell anyway) and then snuffed out? ... everyone should just do as they please then? ... Read More I am really sad that an opportunity to share the gospel had to turn into ridiculous doctrinal differences ~ only turning off people who think we're all stupid in the first place. Nice... : ( Yesterday at 2:31pm Mark Phillips Mark Phillips Did not say Satan. My view is the view of scripture. Not Pagan belief and doctrines of men. I don't try to re-write the meanings of words like death and destruction to make them say something other then they were intended. When one goes through the second death, it will be eternal, and dead, even the memory of them will be gone. I do not know ... Read MoreGary or of what is his faith. The question of what happens to the wicked in hell is not a question that has anything to do with our salvation. It is merely a question of eschatology. Future events. One thing I know is there will be a hell fire for the wicked....and they need to research the Scripture as to what it really, literally says about it. Don't you agree, brother. In the mean time, let's pass on the gospel of the grace of God while there is still time. This has been fun kinda talking real time. I'm going to invite you to be my friend here. Hope you accept the hand of fellowship. Yesterday at 2:33pm · Delete Mark Phillips Mark Phillips I will comment more later. Must get honey does done or experience true WRATH. amen Talk later LOL Yesterday at 2:35pm · Delete Sandra Colvin Sandra Colvin Their worm dieth not ~ oh, so the worms live on eternally while the soul is destroyed? (I've actually heard that before) "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Rev 20:10 ... Read More The lake of fire was made for satan and his angels...but those who reject the gospel go too...they are not somehow spared. How many verses talk about being dead ,but are referring to being dead before salvation? I believe I will be removing this distracting conversation that makes the gospel pointless. I am not a SDA ~ and as horrifying as knowing what Hell is, I don't feel a need to couch it in a comfortable rewording. Jesus would not have warned us all so many times if it was just "the end". I mean, who would care...if you're not there...then you don't know and why all the punishment? Why punish at all a soul who will just be deleted? That is senseless. Yesterday at 2:48pm Paul Broccolo Paul Broccolo My question still stands to Gary. How do you know you will burn? I'm not going to go tit-for-tat on the doctrine of hell. No one really knows how bad it will be for sure. I think its worse then words can describe hence our ignorance. But one things for sure, that which animates our physical bodies is not physical and it is more than biological. To... Read More assume it will cease to exist someday when the Scripture says so much to the contrary is assumption. Reality is more than just the literal definitions we find outside of Scripture. Truly, the Gospel is the power to save from that destruction and is our testimony. "...honey does...or WRATH..."? is that the measure of the Law? Yesterday at 2:48pm Paul Broccolo Paul Broccolo Gary seems as sure of himself as any Christian is in the Bible. If this is so, I would like to know the testimony of his understanding so that we might all be better enlightened. What is the nature of this "much different version of human lineage, one that I can assure most have not heard of" so that we might all learn and investigate the facts? If you have truth, Gary, would you not share such water in the desert of this life? Yesterday at 3:20pm Mark Phillips Mark Phillips If the penalty for sin is not death, literally, but is frying forever in hell. THEN JESUS DID NOT PAY THE PENALTY FOR OUR SIN, BECAUSE HE IS NOT CURRENTLY FRYING IN HELL. As I said before, this question of hell has nothing to do with our salvation. It is an eschatology issue. Jesus did pay the penalty for us on the cross by shedding His blood and ... Read Moredying. He thus paid the wages of sin. People don't have to believe Jesus when He said a soul can be destroyed in hell...(for the wicked) I've never been mad about this issue.and respectfully appreciate all your other posts and your opinion that the wicked will have to pay a price not applied for sin in Scripture. The quote Jesus made about worms never dying was a direct quote form Isaiah where Jesus was talking about the dump where bodies were burned and maggots appear to never die because bodies and garbage was continually dumped there. To believe the wicked are immortal is to believe something not in Scripture. "immortal soul not in Bible" Yesterday at 4:47pm · Delete Mark Phillips Mark Phillips I never get hot or mad about the different views people comment on the Rapture or hell. I find it hard to comprehend that people can literally believe Paul and his Gospel but at the same time accept allegorical views of death and the words destroy and perish and believe the Greek ,pagan views on immortality of the soul, instead of the fact Jesus ... Read Moresaid a soul can be destroyed in hell. A soul (of the wicked cannot both be immortal and be destroyed. Look up destroyed in Websters dictionary. It does not say a perpetual state of being in the process of being destroyed. LOL Yesterday at 4:54pm · Delete Paul Broccolo Paul Broccolo Not going there, I want to hear Gary explain his views. I'm interested in how he comes to the conclusion of burning. Why not quietly decay to ash or turning into plant food? Yesterday at 4:54pm Mark Phillips Mark Phillips The following quotes are all the statements Paul makes about the wicked being immortal or burning and torched in hell flames forever. 1. " ..........NONE........." in this dispensation of grace! Yesterday at 4:56pm · Delete Mark Phillips Mark Phillips I Cor 3:16 Every man is the temple of God and the dwelling place of His Spirit 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God ______"DESTROY"_____; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. The worldly wise man must become a fool to become really wise 18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. ... Read More 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. 21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; 22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; 23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's. Yesterday at 5:03pm · Delete Mark Phillips Mark Phillips The only way destroy does not mean destroy like we know it to be in this life, is to change the clear, literal, meaning of the word by trying to define it as just separation from God burning for ever in hell and denying His words that a soul can be destroyed in hell. I say show me in scripture that the wicked are not to literally perish or be ... Read Moredestroyed. YOU CANNOT do so. NONE of us will lose our salvation over this question.....but some of us will loose something in the BEAMA Judgement over it I am sure. Guess we will just have to continue to love one another and pass on Paul's gospel til then. "BE HAPPY" IN CHRIST JESUS. Yesterday at 5:13pm · Delete Mark Phillips Mark Phillips In closing for now on this topic, please read these links: www.hell-know.net/www.jewishnotgreek.com/ci.pdfYesterday at 5:44pm · Delete Mark Phillips Mark Phillips I was just happy to discuss the issue, as most never really study the issue from literal point of view, but just glumly accept traditions of men and Paganism on this topic, sigh Yesterday at 5:48pm · Delete Mark Phillips Mark Phillips Isaiah 66:24 Yesterday at 5:50pm · Delete Gary Clemens Gary Clemens Paul, how free is your mind??? 9 hours ago Write a comment...
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Post by BrotherMarkP on Sept 29, 2009 9:37:32 GMT -5
CHAPTER ONE
ETERNAL DAMNATION:
What does the Bible Really Teach?
Traditionally, the most prominent view regarding eternal damnation is that the people cast into hell – the lake of fire – will suffer fiery conscious torments forever and ever. Depicting the horrors of this belief was a favorite subject amongst artists in medieval times, resulting in all manner of imaginative and ghastly portraits of people suffering unending agony. Some have since tried to modify this position a bit, suggesting a more metaphorical view, that the unending pain experienced probably refers to the mental anguish of eternal loss and “separation from God;” but it makes no significant difference as both views involve the notion of eternal torment.
This may indeed be the traditionally prominent view regarding human damnation, but is it biblical? That is, do the Judeo-Christian scriptures really teach it? Will the multitudes of people who reject God, and hence are rejected by God, really be subjected to never-ending conscious misery – with no merciful pause to their agony?
One might contend that it is heretical to even question such a long-standing, widely accepted Christian teaching, but if this doctrine is truly scriptural then its proponents have nothing to worry about. Furthermore, it is only proper that all doctrines, no matter how traditional or popular, be questioned in light of what the bible clearly teaches, for it is the God-breathed scriptures alone which we must look to for truth, not popularity or religious tradition. This is the theological principle of sola scriptura, Latin for “by scripture alone,” which maintains that the bible is the final authority regarding all judgments of Christian doctrine and practice.
Because of this sound principle many traditional doctrines and practices have proven to be false over the years and have properly been discarded. Needless to say it’s a very positive thing for Christians to periodically reevaluate their beliefs and practices because it helps prevent Christendom from straying from the biblical model. Since reevaluating official church teachings is very much a part of the Christian heritage, and is indeed a healthy practice, there should be no problem presently in simply entertaining the possibility that tradition may be in error regarding this belief of perpetual conscious torment.
Eternal Torment in Hell: The Silent Subject of the Church
I recently read in a major news magazine that this teaching of hell as eternal torture has all but disappeared from the pulpit ministry in both mainline and evangelical churches. Why is this so? Why are Christians who are committed to this doctrine so reluctant to openly and honestly preach it? Why do they mask what they really believe by saying that the unredeemed will ultimately “perish” or be “destroyed” or suffer eternal “separation from God?” Yes, you’ll hear ‘hell’ brought up now and then, but you’ll rarely, if ever, hear anyone explain what he or she really means when using this term – that is, suffering fiery conscious torment forever and ever with no merciful respite from the misery.
If this is so true, why is everyone so timid about spelling it out loud and clear? The answer is obvious: they’re ashamed of it. They’re ashamed of it because, as Clark Pinnock so aptly put it, this doctrine of eternal torture makes God out to be morally worse than Hitler “who maintains an everlasting Auschwitz for his enemies whom he does not even allow to die. How can one love a God like that? I suppose one might be afraid of Him, but could we love and respect Him? Would we want to strive to be like Him in His mercilessness?” (149). Let’s be honest here and tell it like it is: The doctrine of never-ending conscious torment makes God out to be a cruel, unjust, merciless monster. Who would possibly want to accept salvation from such a God?
Although there are many good reasons for questioning this teaching, the most important reason is the simple fact that the bible does not teach it. Contrary to the loud claims of its staunch supporters, it is not a scriptural doctrine, and this is being realized by a growing number of biblically faithful Christians today. The bible gives strong, irrefutable proof to any honest reader that hell, the lake of fire, signifies literal everlasting destruction for ungodly people,[1] not eternal conscious torment. This is the main reason why so many Christians of all persuasions are embracing the doctrine of everlasting destruction not because they’re “going liberal” as supporters of eternal torment claim. In other words, it’s a case of going biblical, not going liberal.
For clear proof that literal everlasting destruction is what the bible really teaches, let us simply turn to the pages of scripture; after all, a thorough, honest study of the bible will always reveal the truth.
Life and Death: The Two Polar Opposites
The apostle Paul summed up the whole matter of people’s reward for sin when he wrote:
ROMANS 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.
Could anything be clearer than this text? The wages for sin is shown to be death, and eternal life is stated to be a gift from God, not something people already have. This is consistently expressed from Genesis to Revelation, notice:
MATTHEW 7:13-14
“Enter through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad the road that leads to destruction and many enter through it, (14) but small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”
JOHN 3:16
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
ROMANS 8:13
For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
GALATIONS 6:8
The one who sows to please the sinful nature from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the spirit, from the spirit will reap eternal life.
PROVERBS 11:19
The truly righteous man attains life, but he who pursues evil goes to his death.[2]
All these passages clearly describe the two separate destinies of the righteous and the unrighteous. The “righteous” are people who are in-right-standing with God because they’ve accepted his sacrifice for their sins, the “unrighteous” are those who are not in-right-standing with their Creator because they’ve rejected his offer of salvation.[3] The former will inherit eternal life, whereas the latter will reap the wages of sin and be destroyed.
Yet those who adhere to the eternal torture doctrine mysteriously don’t accept this blatantly clear biblical truth. They don’t believe that the two polar opposites are life and death; they believe the two polar opposites are eternal life in heavenly bliss and eternal life in burning torment. Sounds ridiculous, doesn’t it? They may not phrase it in such an open manner, but this is what they actually believe when it comes down to it.
Eternal Life and Immortality – Only Available through the Gospel
The offer to receive eternal life as opposed to suffering everlasting destruction is what the gospel of Christ is all about. We see this plainly expressed in this passage:
2TIMOTHY 1:10
But (God’s grace) has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.”
Notice that life and immortality are only available through the gospel. What exactly is “the gospel?” The gospel literally means “good news.” Its main message is summed up in the famous passage John 3:16: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” Note, once again, what is clearly being contrasted in these passages: In John 3:16 perish is contrasted with the gift of eternal life; in 2Timothy 1:10 death is contrasted with both immortality and life, which are said to be made available through the gospel. If the eternal torture doctrine were true, these verses would be contrasting eternal life and eternal life being tortured, or immortality and immortality in fiery torment. I realize this sounds absurd, but the bible would certainly speak in such honest, blatant terms if this teaching were true. Or do you think God would be misleading or ambiguous about such an important issue in his Holy Scriptures?
The reason the bible doesn’t speak in such a ludicrous way is simply because this doctrine of eternal conscious torment in not a biblical teaching. The above passage, 2Timothy 1:10, makes it plain that until Jesus was raised for our justification, the power of death was not destroyed and hence, immortality was not available to us – life was not available to us. This is because we are all sinners (see Romans 3:23 and Ecclesiastes 7:20) and therefore all deserve death, “for the wages of sin is death.” God cannot overlook this because he is perfectly just. One person cannot pay the penalty for another because both are sinful and deserve death. The only way we can escape this imminent death penalty is if a sinless person, who does not deserve death, dies in our place (Griesmeyer 8:1).
So what did God do? Because he so loved the world and didn’t want anyone to perish, he gave his Son as a sin sacrifice in order that we may have the gift of eternal life. The difference between wages and a gift is that wages are earned while a gift is free. Jesus paid the death penalty that we’ve all earned so that we can have the free gift of eternal life. The Lord did this so that we could fellowship with him forever instead of reaping the wages of sin, which is death.
This fact that God Himself wants to have a relationship with us explains why the gospel is also referred to as “the message of reconciliation” (see 2Corinthians 5:17-21). The gospel is good news indeed because, not only does it grant eternal life to those who accept it, but, more importantly, it enables us to have a relationship with the Creator of the universe!
Notice what John the Baptist declared would happen to those who reject the gospel:
JOHN 3:36
“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”
The passage could not be plainer: those who reject the Son “will not see life.” God’s word is absolute, and this is an absolute statement: Those who reject Jesus Christ will not see any life at all. This includes even a sadistic life in conscious agony for all eternity. Such people will be justly-but-mercifully put to death, absolute death, for this is the wages of their actions. But our loving Creator doesn’t want anyone to perish like this; he has provided a way to eternal life through his Son, Jesus Christ.
Do you see the simple, beautiful, clear message of the gospel here? God is just trying to save his beloved fallen creation, humanity, from the wages of sin. Ezekiel 18:32 reveals the heart of God well on this matter: “ ‘For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone,’ declares the Sovereign LORD, ‘Repent and live!’ ”
Jesus Taught Everlasting Destruction
Didn’t Jesus preach that those who reject the gospel and refuse to repent will suffer never-ending torment in hell? Many ministers adamantly insist on this, but what did Jesus say as recorded in the bible itself? By all means, let’s examine what Jesus himself taught on the issue starting with a statement we’ve already looked at:
MATTHEW 7:13-14:
“ ‘Enter through the narrow gate. For wide and broad is the road that leads to destruction and many enter through it, but small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.’ ”
Seriously, how much clearer could Jesus possibly be here? Destruction is the fate that awaits the “many” that are thrown into the lake of fire, not perpetual undying torture in flames of torment. And please notice, again, that this is in contrast to life that will be granted to the “few.”
Jesus repeatedly made this very clear. For example, consider his simple statement, “Unless you repent, you will all likewise perish” (Luke 13:3,5 NASB). This mirrors Jesus’ statement in John 3:16 regarding the fact that those who believe in him “… shall not perish, but have eternal life.” “Perish” in both these texts is not referring to the death we all must face at the end of this present earthly life. No, Jesus is obviously referring here to a perishing that those who believe in him will not have to suffer – the second death, which takes place on the day of judgment when the damned are cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:11-15 verifies this; verses 14b and 15 of this passage state: “The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
In Matthew 10:28 Jesus solemnly declared what would happen to people when they experience this “second death:”
MATTHEW 10:28
“Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One (God) who can destroy both soul and body in hell.[4]”
Notice that Jesus is telling us explicitly what God will do to unrepentant sinful people on the day of judgment: he will destroy both soul and body in the lake of fire, his chosen instrument of destruction.
Jesus is dealing specifically here with the subject of the second death and yet he says absolutely nothing about spending eternity in undying conscious torment. If this were true Jesus would tell us to “fear the One who is able to preserve the soul in hell.” But this is not what Jesus taught. He didn’t teach it because it is not a biblical doctrine. Religion may very well teach it, but the bible does not. God is going to unenthusiastically issue out the wages of sin and justly destroy the unrighteous, not sadistically torture them forever. Scripture clearly states:
JAMES 4:12
There is only one lawgiver and judge, the One (God) who is able to save and destroy.
You see, God is going to do one of two things with people: he’s either going to save them, that is, grant eternal life to those who respond favorably to his love and gracious gift of life, or he’s going to justly but mercifully destroy them. He may or may not necessarily be the one who personally executes this sentence, but he is certainly the One who authorizes it. In this sense, at least, it is indeed God Himself who destroys the ungodly.
This fact that God is either going to save or destroy people based upon their freewill decision to accept or reject the gospel is clearly illustrated in this passage from Hebrews:
HEBREWS 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.
Those who believe will be saved from the second death and granted eternal life, those who do not will be destroyed, both soul and body, in the lake of fire. It’s that simple. Why do religionists insist on making this simple truth so complicated and perverse?
Do People “CHOOSE Hell”?
I’ve heard many people object to the above passages which state that God Himself is going to “destroy both soul and body in hell,” specifically adherents of the eternal torment view who for obvious reasons cannot take the word “destroy” literally. Their objection is that God isn’t going to destroy anyone because “people choose hell.” What they mean by this, of course, is that, consciously or subconsciously, people choose never-ending agony[5] Their reasoning is that we should not attribute something to God that he’s not guilty of – in this case, destroying people in hell – since people choose their fate.
I’ve never heard anyone who truly has biblical knowledge of this subject to ever argue this point, regardless of which view they adhere to, whether eternal torment or everlasting destruction. Let me explain why:
Christians are said to be saved, but saved from what? Many Christians don’t realize this but we are saved from God’s wrath – yes, we are actually saved from God Himself. We saw this earlier when John the Baptist declared “whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.” Here’s further scriptural verification:
ROMANS 2:5
But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.
ROMANS 5:9
Since we have now been justified by his (Jesus’) blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him?
1THESSALONIANS 1:10b
Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
1THESSALONIANS 5:9
For God did not appoint us to suffer (his) wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
From these texts we observe that Christians are saved from God’s wrath which, according to Romans 2:5 above, will be executed on the day of judgment referred to as “the day of God’s wrath.”[6]
Yet, what exactly is God’s wrath? In the Old Testament anyone who incurred God’s wrath was to suffer destruction at his hands (see, for example, Psalm 106:23 and Ezekiel 20:13). In the same way, when God’s wrath is poured out on judgment day, whoever’s name is not found written in the book of life will suffer destruction at his hands. That’s why Hebrews 10:31 states that “It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
As James 4:12 above plainly states, God is either going to save people or destroy them. That’s why Jesus said in Luke 12:5 to fear God because he alone has the authority and power to cast people into hell, the lake of fire. And, as shown above, what did Jesus clearly say God would do to people there? He’s going to “destroy both soul and body” (Matthew 10:28). The Greek word translated as “destroy” in these two texts is repeatedly used in the bible to describe the eternal fate of the unrighteous, as we shall observe in the very next section. So there’s absolutely no question that God is going to destroy people who reject his offer of salvation; this is simply the result of incurring his wrath. The question is what does “destroy” mean? Does it literally mean destroy, as I contend it does, or does it refer to never-ending torment? In either case, the uncontestable fact is that God Himself is the One who’s doing the destroying.
There’s nothing morally or judicially wrong with the fact that God is going to irreversibly destroy sinful people who reject his gracious gift of eternal life. The bible repeatedly makes it clear that the wages of sin is death, and God has also made sure that every human heart instinctively realizes this (see Romans 1:32). Thus, people who reject God’s redemption through Christ in favor of living a sinful lifestyle are indeed choosing the wages of their actions, death – whether consciously or subconsciously – and God, who respects their freewill, will unenthusiastically accommodate them. He alone is the ultimate authority and giver of life, and therefore he has the authority and right to take life away – if he must.
After all, justice demands the execution of the penalty of the law. In this case the penalty of the law is death – eternal death – death with no hope of resurrection. The apostle Paul refers to this sentence as “everlasting destruction” (2Thessalonians 1:9). Its execution is necessary in order that God may be just. A government which never calls offenders against the law to account is contemptible and wicked. The biblical doctrine of eternal punishment is our assurance that God is essentially and unchangingly holy and just.
So, to answer the question, do people “choose hell”? Certainly not in a literal sense. After all, people are not going to willingly and gleefully jump into the lake of fire on judgment day. No, God is going to judge them, dispose of them in the lake of fire and utterly eradicate them there. Why? Not because people choose hell, but because people choose sin, and the wages of sin is death. And God, who is the ultimate authority, lawgiver and judge, is the One who will execute this death sentence. He once again may or may not necessarily be the one who personally executes this sentence, but he at least executes it in the sense that he authorizes it. Although, based upon the scriptural evidence, I personally believe that God Himself executes the sentence (we’ll observe support for this as our study progresses, even though the matter itself is inconsequential).
Incidentally, the very fact that some people who adhere to the view of eternal torment argue that God is not Himself guilty of tormenting people forever proves that the idea of eternal conscious torture is indeed a profoundly disturbing concept which naturally offends our moral and judicial instincts. The only way these people can accept this idea and live with themselves is by believing that their good, loving God is not the one carrying out this sadistic sentence.
“Destroy both Soul and Body” as in Complete Incineration
We’ve viewed some pretty clear biblical texts which plainly state that unrepentant sinners will ultimately perish and be destroyed. Let’s dig a little deeper and trace these words to the original language in which they were written.
The words “perish” (from John 3:16 and Luke 13:3,5) and “destroy” (from Matthew 10:28 and James 4:12) are both English translations of the Greek word apollumi (ap-ole’-loo-mee)[7] which literally means “to destroy utterly” or “to perish” (Bulinger 220; Vine 164).
Apollumi is used most often in the bible simply in reference to the natural death we all must experience at the end of our present lives – the first death. For example, notice how apollumi is used in this following text by Jesus’ disciples when a squall threatened their lives as they and Jesus crossed the Sea of Galilee:
MARK 4:38
Jesus was in the stern, sleeping on a cushion. The disciples woke him and said to him, “Teacher, don’t you care if we drown (apollumi)?”
As you can see, apollumi here simply refers to drowning. Apollumi is used 26 other times in the New Testament in reference to the first death. Likewise, Homer, in his epics of Greek antiquity, used apollumi chiefly of death in battle.
The apostles, like Jesus, also used this very same word, apollumi, in reference to the second death – the eternal fate of the ungodly:
1CORINTHIANS 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing (apollumi); but to those who are being saved, it is the power of God.
2THESSALONIANS 2:10b
They perish (apollumi) because they refuse to love the truth and be saved.
2PETER 3:9b
He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish (apollumi), but everyone to come to repentance.
All these texts are indeed referring to what will happen at the second death and yet, once again, there is mysteriously no mention whatsoever of eternal burning in conscious torment. In view of such blatantly clear biblical evidence, how can adherents of the eternal torture doctrine possibly maintain their view? Their theory is that, in all these cases, the Greek word apollumi does not literally mean “to destroy utterly” or “to perish,” but rather that the idea is “not extinction, but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well being” (Vine 164/Pearlman 387). This theory is a good example of trying to make the scriptures line up with one’s favored doctrine rather than lining up one’s doctrine with what the scriptures literally teach.
There are a number of good reasons for rejecting this theory. First of all, the bible itself provides very certain proof of what apollumi really means when used in reference to the second death: apollumi is used by Jesus in Luke 17:29[8] to describe the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah: “ ‘But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed (apollumi) them all.’ ” Since apollumi is used to describe this destruction, the question must be asked: how were the cities of Sodom & Gomorrah and their inhabitants destroyed? Was the well-being of these cities merely ruined? No, Genesis 19:24–28 verifies that they were completely burned to ashes. This includes all the people in them, all the animals, and even the vegetation – in fact, all the land of the entire plain which these cities occupied! Peter also verifies this:
2Peter 2:6a
If he (God) condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes…
“Ashes” here is the Greek word tephroo (tef-ro’-ro) which means “to incinerate, i.e. consume” (Strong 71), and apollumi is the Greek word used to describe this absolute incineration as shown above in Luke 17:29. My point is that apollumi, in this case, refers to utter destruction and perishing in the sense of complete incineration. The idea “not extinction, but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being” does not fit here at all because the well-being of Sodom and Gomorrah wasn’t merely ruined; these cities were completely and finally destroyed by incineration – forever obliterated!
But there’s more: Peter goes on to state that this utter incineration of Sodom and Gomorrah is an example of what will happen to the ungodly:
2Peter 2:6
If he (God) condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
We know Peter is specifically referring here to what will happen to the ungodly on judgment day when they’re thrown into the lake of fire (the second death) because this will be the only time that all the ungodly will experience a fate comparable to the judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah. If the incineration of Sodom and Gomorrah is a true, trustworthy example of what will happen to the ungodly when they suffer the second death, then we must conclude that the ungodly will, in fact, be incinerated; and if it is certain that the Greek word apollumi definitely refers to absolute incineration in reference to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, then it naturally follows that apollumi must also refer to absolute incineration when it is used in reference to the second death because the incineration of Sodom and Gomorrah is an example of the second death.
So as you can see, by following the hermeneutical law of allowing scripture to interpret scripture (Milne 60-61; Author 74) we have a clear understanding that the Greek word apollumi, when used in reference to the second death (e.g. Matthew 10:28), refers to nothing other than complete and final destruction. Thus the silly theory of “not extinction, but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being” is proven false.
Yet there’s much more scriptural proof that apollumi refers to literal destruction when applied to the second death. To start with, there are many other biblical words, besides apollumi, which describe the second death strictly in terms of complete and irreversible death and destruction…
“The Wages of Sin is Death” not Eternal Conscious Torture
Let’s begin with the Greek word thanatos (than’-at-os). This word simply means “death” (Strong 35), the express opposite of life (see Romans 8:38) and therefore the cessation of conscious existence. Thanatos is most often used in the bible simply in reference to the death that all human beings must one day experience – the first death (e.g. Acts 23:29). The first death therefore refers at least to the cessation of conscious existence in the physical realm.
Thanatos is also used in reference to the second death – the destruction of both soul and body in the lake of fire. In fact the Greek word translated as “death” in the phrase “the second death” is thanatos. For instance, “ ‘He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death (thanatos)’ ” (Revelation 2:11b). The text refers to those who “overcome,” which is simply a reference to all true Christians (see 1John 5:4); they will not be hurt at all by the second death. The second death has no power over spiritually born-again believers because they’ve been saved from God’s wrath through Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection. That’s why Jesus said:
JOHN 8:51
“I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word he will never see death (thanatos).”
This is obviously not referring to the first death here; after all, Christians who have faithfully “kept his word” have been dying for centuries. No, this is a reference to the second death. Jesus’ promise is that true believers will never experience the destruction of the second death in the lake of fire. This coincides perfectly with what Jesus said in John 3:16, that those who believe in him “shall not perish but have eternal life.”
As important as it is to point out what the bible does say, I think it’s sometimes important to point out what the bible does not say as well. In this case, notice that Jesus does not say, “if anyone keeps my word he will never see eternal life in conscious torment.” Jesus doesn’t say this, does he? No, he simply states that those who keep his word will never see death – the second death – the destruction of soul and body in the lake of fire.
The second death is the ultimate consequence of sin. “The wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23), “sin… leads to death” (Romans 6:16), and sin will “result in death” (Romans 6:21). “Death” in all these texts is the Greek word thanatos; and they all refer to the ultimate penalty of sin – the second death.
The bible clearly states in James 1:14-15 that “sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death (thanatos).” Note that sin ultimately gives birth to death, not life in everlasting conscious torment. This is again emphasized later in James:
JAMES 5:20 (NRSV)
You should know that whoever brings back a sinner from wandering will save that sinner’s soul from death (thanatos).
We clearly observe here that if a person is not brought back from the error of a sinful lifestyle, their soul will die! When did Jesus say a soul would die and by whom? He said that God Himself would “destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matthew 10:28). So we know this text is definitely a reference to the second death as well. Notice that a sinner’s soul is not saved from never-ending fiery torment, but from death. The bible’s repeatedly clear on this matter.
Let’s briefly examine some other New Testament words that describe the second death strictly in terms of death and utter destruction:
“Their Destiny is Destruction”
The Greek word apoleia (ap-oe’-li-a), which is the noun form of apollumi, refers to utter destruction and is often used in reference to the eternal fate of the ungodly, i.e. the second death. This is the case with the aforementioned Matthew 7:13-14 where Jesus stated “wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction (apoleia) and many enter through it.” Jesus spoke of this destruction in direct contrast to the “life” that would be granted to the righteous “few;” so obviously apoleia is the direct opposite of life, namely death.
In 2Peter 3:7 apoleia is used to describe the destruction of the second death:
2PETER 3:7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgement and destruction (apoleia) of ungodly men.
The day of judgment is the day when ungodly people will suffer everlasting destruction. This is their “eternal punishment” as God destroys “both soul and body in hell” (please notice that I said “eternal punishment,” not “eternal punishing”).
This is the ultimate destiny of God’s enemies as Paul verifies in Philippians 3:18-19a: “For, as I have told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction (apoleia).” Thus the bible repeatedly refers to God’s enemies as “doomed to destruction (apoleia)” or “prepared for destruction (apoleia)” (e.g. John 17:12b; 2Thessalonians 2:3; Romans 9:22).
Apoleia is also translated as “destroyed” in reference to the eternal fate of God’s enemies: “…they will be destroyed (apoleia)” (Philippians 1:28b), “we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed (apoleia)” (Hebrews 10:39).
The eternal destiny of ungodly people who reject God’s love in Christ is destruction – they will ultimately be destroyed. Seriously, how much plainer could the bible be on the subject?
“They will be Punished with Everlasting Destruction”
The Greek word olethros (ol’-eth-ros) which means “destruction” (Vine 165) is used by Paul to describe the eternal punishment of the second death:
2THESSALONIANS 1:8-9 (KJV)
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ: (9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction (olethros) from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.
The first part of this text reveals that God will punish those who reject the gospel, and verse 9 reveals exactly what this punishment will be: everlasting destruction. This obviously refers to destruction that lasts forever and not to an endless process of destroying as supporters of eternal torment contend. To perpetually destroy without ever destroying isn’t really destruction because destruction never actually takes place. Such would be everlasting torment but not everlasting destruction.
Adherents of eternal torture also argue that if, in fact, “destruction” refers to complete extinction it would be unnecessary to describe it as “everlasting.” The reason the destruction is described as everlasting is obvious: “Everlasting destruction” is a reference to the second death. The second death is different from the first death in that everyone is resurrected from the first death to face judgment. There is, however, no such resurrection from the second death; it is a death that lasts forever – an “everlasting destruction” – destruction that lasts forever.
The text goes on to reveal that this everlasting destruction shall proceed “from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.” This is further proof that it is God Himself, the supreme authority and judge, who will execute the everlasting destruction of the second death.
The New International Version translates verse 9 as “They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power.” This translation is acceptable as well, as both versions could be read together as such: God will punish the ungodly with everlasting punishment which proceeds from his presence and, consequently, removes or eradicates them from his presence forever (Fudge/Peterson 60).
To shed a bit more light on the meaning of olethros, the Greek word translated as “destruction” in this text, the verb form of this word, olothreuo (ol-oth-ryoo’-oh), is used in Hebrews 11:28 in reference to the death angel – “the destroyer” – who slew all the first-born of Egypt (see Exodus 12:29). So we’re talking about destruction in the sense of slaying here, which will be executed by God himself on “the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men” (2Peter 3:7).
“If You Live according to the Sinful Nature you will Die”
Let’s examine yet another biblical word used to describe the second death, the Greek word apothnesko (ap-oth-nace’-ko). Apothnesko simply means “to die off” (Strong 14) – to cease to live – and is exclusively translated as “die,” “died,” “dies,” “dead,” “dying” and “death” in the New International Version of the bible. Unsurprisingly, apothnesko most often refers to the death all humans and animals must face at the end of our earthly sojourn. For instance, apothnesko is used in Matthew 8:32 in reference to pigs which “died in the water” and also in Revelation 8:9 and 16:3 in reference to millions of sea creatures which “died.” We can confidently deduce that apothnesko refers to the utter cessation of life in these cases. Apothnesko is also used a myriad of times in reference to the (first) death of human beings (e.g. Acts 9:37).
Let’s observe how apothnesko is used in reference to the second death in a passage already briefly viewed:
ROMANS 8:13
For if you live according to the sinful nature you will die (apothnesko); but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
Those who embrace sin and reject God will one day reap the wages of their actions; they will die. We know this isn’t a reference to the first death because even those who “by the Spirit… put to death the misdeeds of the body” will one day die. So this a definite reference to the second death wherein God will “destroy both soul and body in hell.”
Here’s a case where Jesus used apothnesko in reference to both the first death and the second death:
JOHN 6:48-51a
“I am the bread of life. (49) Your forefathers ate manna in the desert, yet they died (apothnesko). (50) But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die (apothnesko). (51) I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever.”
In this text Jesus is likening himself to the “bread of life… that comes down from heaven” in comparison to the earthly “bread,” manna, which God miraculously provided for the Israelites when they were wandering in the desert (see Exodus 16:15,31).
As you can see, apothnesko appears twice in this passage. The first time, in verse 49, it is obviously used in reference to the death which all of us humans must face at the end of our earthly lives, the first death, as Jesus points out that the Israelite forefathers who partook of manna, the earthly “bread,” died. The second time apothnesko appears (verse 50) it is used in reference to the second death as Jesus declares that those who partake of him, the heavenly bread of life, will not die, but, as he goes on to say in verse 51, will live forever.
We know for certain that, in verse 50, Jesus is not referring to the first death because even people who partake of the bread of heaven – that is, accept Jesus as Lord – will one day die. No, Jesus is referring to another death – the second death.
We could succinctly sum up this passage as such: Those who partake of Jesus, the heavenly bread of life, will not suffer the second death, but will live forever.
Let’s look at another very similar statement of Jesus’ in which apothnesko is used:
JOHN 11:25-26
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life, he who believes in me will live even though he dies (apothnesko); (26) and whoever lives and believes in me will never die (apothnesko). Do you believe this?”
Apothnesko appears twice in this passage as well; and, like the previous passage, the first time it is used in reference to the first death, the second time in reference to the second death.
For verification, note that Jesus states in verse 25 that those who believe in him will live even though they die. All Jesus is saying here is that, because he is the resurrection and the life, those who believe in him, even though they will die (i.e. suffer the first death), they will be resurrected unto eternal life. Jesus spoke of this resurrection when he stated:
JOHN 5:28-29
“… a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice (29) and come out – those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.”
We see two classes of people referred to in this text: “Those who have done good” will rise to live; this is referring to the resurrection unto eternal life spoken of in Daniel 12:2. Revelation 20:6 states that “the second death has no power over” the people who partake in this resurrection. This explains why Jesus states in John 11:26 above that believers in him “will never die” – they will not suffer the second death. The other class of people – “those who have done evil” – will rise to be judged and condemned. Condemned to what? Condemned to the second death where Jesus said God would “destroy both soul and body.”
As we have observed from the texts we’ve examined in this section – Romans 8:13, John 6:50 and John 11:26 – the Greek word apothnesko, meaning “to die,” is used to describe the second death. Why? Obviously because the people thrown into the lake of fire on judgment day will die. Certainly there will be a period of conscious suffering, however long or brief, and no doubt this suffering will be meted out as divine justice requires for each individual; but the final, everlasting outcome for all people thrown into the lake of fire is that they will die. If this were not so, the above passages would not use apothnesko to plainly describe the second death.
The Language of Destruction
As we have plainly seen, the usual, basic meaning of the Greek word apollumi – “to perish” or “destroy utterly” – is backed up by many other biblical words which likewise describe the second death strictly in terms of literal death and complete destruction.
Let us briefly review what Jesus and the apostles plainly taught would happen to ungodly people at the second death. They taught that the ungodly would die (John 11:26; Romans 8:13), that they would experience death (John 8:51; Romans 6:23; James 5:20), that destruction would occur (Matthew 7:13; 2Peter 3:7), that both their souls and bodies would be destroyed (Matthew 10:28; James 4:12), and that they would perish (John 3:16; 2Peter 3:9).
So there you have it in a nutshell – Jesus and the apostle’s description of the second death: die, death, destruction, destroy and perish. We could appropriately describe these terms as “language of destruction.” As we have seen, this “language of destruction” is consistently used to describe the eternal fate of the ungodly; not the language of eternal conscious torment, not the language of “eternal separation from God,” not the language of “ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being,” but the language of destruction.
My obvious point here is that if the eternal fate of unrepentant sinners is to be some sort of perpetual life or existence in separation from God in utter misery and torment, God could have said so. He could have used words which have for their basic meaning “separation from God,” “existence in torment,” or “life in misery.” But he did not. He instead consistently used words which have for their general, usual, or basis meaning “die,” “death,” “destruction,” “destroy,” and “perish.” If language means anything at all, we have no choice but to conclude that the second death will be a literal death – utter, awful, complete and final (McFarland 29).
Yet, as if this consistent biblical usage of “the language of destruction” isn’t enough evidence, the bible gives numerous easy-to-understand examples to back it up.
Back to Top
CHAPTER TWO
BIBLICAL EXAMPLES
of Everlasting Destruction
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Post by BrotherMarkP on Sept 30, 2009 22:26:14 GMT -5
You simply cannot try to save some one by telling them false, twisted doctrine that only leads to confusion. Try telling the plain truth about any topic from the literal Word of God. Don't try to support your traditions of men by trying to change definitions of words. The Bible says what it means in truth and means what it says in truth. Don't try to add to it or take away from it with traditions of men and changed meanings of literal, clear words in the Scriptures! Brother Sal at chnradio.com understands the truth about hell. He understands it because he takes Scripture for the words it says quite literally and makes no attempt like , we find in religions today to redefine words like death, perish and destruction. HOW ABOUT YOU? DO YOU LIKE TO CHANGE WORDS LIKE DEATH TO MEAN ETERNAL TORMENT, OR SEPARATION FROM GOD.......BUT AT THE SAME TIME IN HIS PRESENCE BEING FRIED FOREVER IN HELL, NEVER WITHOUT END????What confusion! We all know who is the author of that. Enjoy the truth and not tradition: People sure love their Hell don’t they? They just can’t, or don’t want to understand that only God reads hearts. Hell is a way you compare yourself to the filthiness of others. That other person who is committing those sins that you don’t is surely going to burn in hell for them, but not you, you don’t do that sin. The reality is that we all deserve and will receive death for our sin condition unless we do the only thing we can to get remission and eternal life. The only other prospect is to do nothing and die from it. Living the life of calling on God to help you live a life closer to what Jesus demonstrated a man’s life should be, is all in the relationship that is made possible by the sacrifice of Jesus which destroyed the wall of partition built between man and God by Adam. Since then we have direct access to the Father and our confidence in our salvation grows with each passing day that we take the time to cast our cares on Him. If you are not availing yourself of that, start today. If you are, then you know what I say is true. And what that confidence in your salvation should be doing is opening your mind to let the revealed Word of God come into you. The Word is already there. The time for it to be understood, in it’s relevant to the times meaning, is now. Daniel is on the scene. We are well into the toes Kingdom time. The Jews who are living today are the generation that will see the end – their end. Let me tell you about Hell and everlasting punishment from my point of view of what it says in Scripture. The last word on the fate of all those with the inherited sin condition, ergo all humans, is to be raised and judged and then thrown into the lake of fire to receive their second death. Now, that is exactly what happens to them according to Jesus, as He told John in Revelation 20:15. There is no further word except that all those who were not in the book of life were tossed into the lake where they died. Now, where is the misunderstanding about that? Death means death, not everlasting punishment. But on the other hand, death IS and everlasting punishment. That means we have to work backwards in scripture from there. That is the final word on it – Death for those with the sin condition who did nothing about it. Now let’s examine everlasting life. Who gets it? Only the New Creatures in Christ have that promise. NO ONE ELSE! Now, everlasting life for the new creature is everlasting life with God. If a human, who is not a new creature, is forever punished in "hell", burning in fire for eternity, then that human has everlasting life, but without God. Where is the punishment for the sin condition? That punishment is made very clear by God in Scripture in four words; for sin comes DEATH. Ergo Jesus dies to pay for the sin condition of mankind. From that time on, after the Jews reject the sacrifice of Jesus, the New Covenant Creatures in Christ are promised that Jesus is the covering for their sin condition and that they have everlasting life in place of death because of Jesus. Where is the "Hell" in that? I simply can't find it; which entirely changes the meaning of hell. Who gets it as everlasting punishment? The saved get heaven, and the unsaved get death. Who gets Hell? Religion teaches that the unsaved sinners go to hell and burn forever. Jesus says that unsaved sinners get death in the lake of fire. Confusion! But we do have three names that are singled out by God to receive an everlasting punishment; The Devil, The Beast and The False Prophet. Let’s examine that. The Beast, who came out of the Pit (the Abyss) to possess the Little Horn and turn him into Antichrist, or the false deliverer of the Jews, is not a human. He is already an everlasting being; a Prince in the angelic world according to Daniel. He possessed a human, and when that human was tossed into the lake of fire, he died, but the eternal being that was The Beast, is tormented day and night forever and ever. Which may a different meaning than it appears, but we will leave that for now. At that same time, The False Prophet is tossed into the lake and he is tormented day and night forever. Now we know from Scripture that The False Prophet works miracles, so he has an everlasting spirit behind him also, since miracles are definitely not a human characteristic. So again, the human part dies in the fire, and the spirit being is tormented forever and ever. That is at the beginning of the millennial reign of Jesus and His Body who the redeemed that went to heaven as promised – all those who accepted Jesus as the covering for their sin condition under the terms of the covenant. Now, jump ahead in time over 1000 years. The Devil, who was chained and locked in the Pit for the 1000 years, was in a different place (the same place that the Beast had come out of). He is let out of the Pit and he goes to “his own” (who are they where did they come from?) and tries once again to destroy God's people. Of course he is defeated, and this time he (The Devil – Satan/Lucifer) is tossed into the lake of fire where The Beast and The False Prophet are (for over 1000 years now) and he is tormented forever. Now there is on one else that is ever mentioned that is burned in the lake of fire and lives forever tormented. It is spelled out exactly, without need for interpretation. God said what He meant and meant what He said. So, now we have to deal with all the scriptures that talk about hell. But we must deal with it from what we know the result is, not assume we know what it means and then get to the end and put a false spin on what the end says. You are forced to put a false spin on the end because you locked yourself in back at the beginning. All of a sudden you get to the end of the story and you find that everyone is either in heaven or dead. Now, in order for all of the other stuff to be true, this has to be false. Confusion! But, we know that God does not tell falsehoods, so something else is wrong. We know that God is not the author of confusion, so the confusion does not come from Him. Now whose purpose is it to confuse us? And what good would it serve? It certainly would not serve God to confuse us, because he took the time to tell us that He is not the author of confusion. There is only one adversary - the Devil. It suits his purpose to make you believe there is an everlasting fiery hell waiting for you after you are saved, as a punishment if you sin, because you can’t live a sinless life – you can only be covered for your sin condition. If you were to think that you could loose your salvation because of your sinful ways, then despair sets in when you can't overcome your sins. And as time goes on one might have the tendency to start picking and choosing what it is that they believe about the word of God - that's where it gets confusing and where the Laodicean Church age came from. And in my opinion it's all caused by Religious Tradition which Jesus condemned. The part about tormented forever and ever. The word translated forever is "aion". Aion means, "For an age", and the Greek double emphasis is not there, i.e. the great tribulation the great (double emphasis to single it out from ordinary tribulation) So, one could take that to mean that at the end of some age time line even that will come to an end. But none of this affects our standing in salvation. There is only one prerequisite for Salvation; being in Christ. Being there eliminates for all time the possibility of there being a "hell" for the saved. If you read my piece on the sin condition then you understand what I am saying and where I'm coming from on this. If you haven’t then read it. I hope I have clarified this muddy issue for you. If not, just keep asking until you run out of questions. We can't learn if we don't ask. You owe it to your free and abundant life to find the answers for yourself. That's why God made the relationship so personal. You have the right and obligation to seek out the truth of His Word. Just keep in mind that Jesus told the high priest that the Word of God is made VOID by your traditions. As I have been teaching for all these years, you won’t get it by osmosis; you must study the Word of God as He said. Faith commeth by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God, and Faith is what saves, and Faith is an action, based upon belief and sustained by confidence, and saved means everlasting life with God. Could it be any simpler than that? Brother Sal chnradio.com
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